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This week on the show we chat with Barry Ackroyd BSC about his cinematography on feature films and how his experience shapes his approach to filmmaking.
Barry has worked on a huge number of films and projects and his understanding of cinematography as an art form is undeniable.
It was a real pleasure to chat with him and hear his first hand account of working on some of the biggest films of the last generation.
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There were lots of things to see and discuss so we will not be short on conversation points. I am looking forward to chatting with everyone! See you in the live stream.
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Featured Guest: Barry Ackroyd BSC
Website: Barry Ackroyd BSC
The Wandering DP Podcast: Episode #129 - Barry Ackroyd BSC Transcript
Patrick:00:00:00Ready. Set. Go.
Patrick:00:00:06Ready. Set. Go.
Patrick:00:00:08Ready. Set. Go.
Announcer:00:00:11Welcome to The Wandering DP Podcast, where we focus on Leica photography, cinematography, and life off set.
Announcer:00:00:18And now, your host, Patrick O'Sullivan.
Patrick:00:00:23Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of the podcast. Would it be an intro if I didn't say ladies and gentleman, if I just went into it? Sort of, like, the music, right? I know it's cliché, I know it's a little bit, just a hint, shitty, but we keep it anyway, we keep that vibe going, because that is what the podcast is all about.
Patrick:00:00:41Today, who do we have on the show? Perhaps ... not perhaps, definitely the most experienced cinematographer that we've ever had on the show, Barry Ackroyd BSc. It's official. The podcast has certainly lifted its game today, we are going mainstream. I don't know if Barry would call himself that but, certainly, we're going successful people now. Barry is ... has been at the top of the game for a long, long time.
Patrick:00:01:10So it's interesting, sometimes we'll hear from people that are just starting out in their career and, other times it's nice to get a perspective that's completely different, of someone that has been shooting films, and I don't use that world lightly, but actual films, on film, to be played in the movie theater for a long, long time. He has got a shit ton of experience and doesn't have any problem sharing the little techniques and the tips and the tricks that he's picked up along the way, and it's interesting to hear how his outlook on cinematography has changed over the years and how ... more importantly how it's stayed the same, and how his vision has stayed the same, and what he likes to look for, and how he likes to operate.
Patrick:00:01:44So we have Barry Ackroyd on the show, and I think you're going to get a lot out of the interview, and it's going to be a real treat. So you may know him, if you don't know the name, from movies like Detroit, Jason Bourne, The Big Short, Parkland, Captain Phillips, and The Hurt Locker. Once you see ... if you go on the show notes page, what is this, Episode 120- what are we at here ... 9? 129. Episode 129. That will be on the Show Notes page, it'll have a bunch of Barry's stuff up there, and I think you'll immediately see the style. Not only the style that we talk about during the interview, but also just, overall, as you watch the projects back-to-back you'll all of a sudden start to see, "Wait a sec. I'm seeing things here, overlapping." And I think Barry does a great job of explaining why that is, and why he does it that way. Because someone with this amount of experience, you can, to a certain extent, as we've talked about previously on the podcast, you get to a certain level and everyone can figure out a way to light a shot, but as you start to develop tendencies and understand what you do and don't like, it's the decisions of what not to do that really shape and form the project. I think Barry's working mannerisms, and the way that he operates, and the crews that he works with, I think you'll be able to identify those things straightaway. So a real big pleasure to have him on, and we're looking forward to getting that out there.
Patrick:00:03:00Over on Patreon, this week, we are probably going to be doing a live stream, my best bet. It's more about, will the gear be here? Will the gear be in the live stream room by the time we end up getting around to doing it? It's been a little bit of time since the live stream. We've been traveling and working on jobs but, I think, this week is going to be the week that we pull it all together, if not it'll be a podcast. But try to get through as many of the questions and answers as possible, that happen over in the Patreon Group, because they're coming thick and fast. I don't know if that's good or if that's bad? My thinking originally was it's good, because that means people are trying to elevate their game, they're getting out of their comfort zone, which is always something that will help boost you to the next level. But bad, because I don't have the time, unfortunately, at the moment, to respond to everything, so I like to get 'em out there in chunks of podcasts and live streams.
Patrick:00:03:48And the live streams have been really beneficial in its ability to immediately see what people's problems are, and we can discuss them as a group and see exactly where things could be changed, or what you could do in possible situations. So, hopefully, we get around to a live stream this week but, if not, there'll certainly be a podcast answering all of the questions that come in, over Patreon, and over the Facebook group, which is, again, picking up traction, and that his what we like to see.
Patrick:00:04:11Now, before we get into the interview, of course, we need to thank the sponsors of the show, holding it down strong, it is the Musicbed. Musicbed it making better music accessible to everyone, from your wedding films and small businesses to broadcast ads and feature films. With their highly curated roster of over 650 artists and composers, they've helped soundtrack groundbreaking projects, from Jaguar, Apple, Hulu, and Nike, as well as the HBOs, Leftovers, Amazon Transparent, and Oscar winning shorts. They have done it all. They all have the thing that you need for your project, and then you're going to look like a star. And, chances are, you will never give credit to the Musicbed, you will shun them, hide them under the carpet, but you'll use them on the next job, too, because it's just that easy.
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Patrick:00:05:18So Musicbed.com/new, that's where you can find all of the stuff, and you can see all the different filters that you can use. You can see all the new features that are in the workflows and in the checkout processes there. And you get 20% off your next on site license, with the coupon code, Wandering20.
Patrick:00:05:37And if we do the Musicbed, you know who comes next. It's our good friends Keslow Camera in Los Angeles, in Vancouver, New Mexico, Chicago, Atlanta, Toronto, New Orleans, and Utah. They are scouring the North American continent, and they are putting cameras, they are putting gear, they are putting lenses, they are putting qualified people all over the jobs, all over the country. It's no doubt, because they are well known for how meticulously they look after their gear, for their range, their selection of stuff. And when I say 'stuff' I mean high quality, cinema grade gear that will help you get the job done.
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Patrick:00:07:20So, as soon as you have this done, this is, sort of, like, I've talked many times on this show about getting gear, or buying gear, or the gear that you should be interested in, and a lot of the times it's easiest just to go with the best and then you know, any worry is completely is completely taken off the table, because Keslow will take care of you, they will look out for you, they will make sure, if you go away to some unknown part of the world, that you are strapped with the latest and greatest gear, and your project will be a success, at least in terms of technical gear-wise and having the right gear for the right job. And not going in thinking that anamorphics are going to be super-running gun, and getting there and realizing you forget the diopters.
Patrick:00:07:55So, Keslow, K-E-S-L-O-W camera. com. Check them out on Instagram, as well. They are all over the place, and they are more than happy, if you mention The Wandering DP, to bring you into the Keslow family and help you on all of your projects moving forward.
Patrick:00:08:10Okay. That is going to do it for the sponsorship. Now, let's get straight in, I don't think we have anything else to chitchat about. Let's get straight in, to our featured guest, cinematographer Barry Ackroyd BSc.
Patrick:00:08:28Alright Barry. Welcome to the show. It's a pleasure to have you on.
Barry Ackroyd:00:08:32Thank you. It's my pleasure to, thanks.
Patrick:00:08:34So where are you at, at the moment? Where are you ... are you ... you're getting ready to do something in pre-production? What's happening?
Barry Ackroyd:00:08:42Yeah. In a strange place, really. I finished a film, really, towards the end of last year, and took a little bit of time off just to rest up in the English winter: went to Australia. I've been working on some commercials since, and reading some scripts, but it looks like some of the scripts that come toward me now, are a little bit kind of, off ... a little bit off-key, if you know what I mean? So I'm getting offered scripts that I wouldn't associate with myself, so I'm surprised by that sometimes.
Patrick:00:09:19Yeah. And what do you attribute that to?
Barry Ackroyd:00:09:24I think there's a ... when you get to a level of success it's a strange thing, really. The great thing is when you start out shooting is that people come to you because ... or certainly came to me because I had a kind of style that they could recognize, I had a way of doing things, and I had a stance in the world, a political stance, and people ... some people liked it. Those were the people that would come to you and give you the jobs, and then you'd have a good rapport with them, and you'd work with them over and over again.
Barry Ackroyd:00:09:57But now, it's more like those ... and that still happens, for sure. But some of the things that you get offered now, are just based on the fact that we're shooting out of London, you're from London, you're based in London. You've got a track record where so many billions of dollars have been made on the films that you've worked on, and you tick that box, you tick another box. You do action films: tick that box. You know what I mean? And here's the script. There's less creative thought gone into it than, how shall we put it, economics. It's the production that real ... Yeah, most of these films are planned to make money, and I've never worked on those, so ... although they do, they make money, you know. So ... yeah.
Patrick:00:10:50Yeah. And you've been on such big stuff before. Even at the level that you're at now, are the scripts actually coming to you or do you have, like, a filtration process, where the shitty stuff doesn't get to you?
Barry Ackroyd:00:11:04Well no. I don't thing there's any such thing, really, as shitty stuff. I think it's just appropriate. It's, like, these films will get made, some make a lot of money, they'll be very entertaining, some will be brilliant. And there is a filtration process, but an agent who people talk to can't really filter out all your dreams and your wishes, and wherever you stand at this moment in time.
Barry Ackroyd:00:11:36So I get the scripts. I read through them. If they're kind of appropriate .... you know because I've got to say, there were a couple of good scripts there. And I'm waiting on one that is coming up later in the year, perhaps. Well it will come up later in the year. Would I be the DP on it? Fingers crossed. I hope so.
Patrick:00:11:57Yeah. And what does that process look for someone at your level? Does the process ... that you get the script and they say they're interested and they're doing that with five other people, and then you go in and, sort of, interview? Or how does it work?
Barry Ackroyd:00:12:07Yeah. I mean a lot of ... that's going back to what I was saying before, the great times were when someone gave you a phone call, and you had a really good conversation with them, and you ended up doing a film, and that was ... that's defined by some ... I worked for a long time with Ken Loach, on his films, and I thought that would have a big influence over the rest of my career, and it did, because it's taught me everything I know, really.
Barry Ackroyd:00:12:34But those phone calls that came out of the blue were the really interesting ones. Which was Paul Greengrass, and it was, kind of, "I know I want you to do this film," and that happened to be United 93. And then Kathryn Bigelow, for instance, and Kathryn phoned up and said "I know I want you to do this film. It's The Hurt Locker." And that was a good one. And Adam McKay did the same thing, "I know I want you to do this film." So those ... that's the really ... that's the best dynamic you can have, basically.
Barry Ackroyd:00:13:08But I know there are other films that I want to work on, where you have to compete, and that's fair enough. You have to complete for some stuff, you know. I'm not one for pushing myself forward but, you know, you let the work speak for yourself. Hopefully, it's the people who read the work well, that respond well.
Patrick:00:13:33Yeah. And in that process where you are, like you say, not really selling yourself or pushing yourself too much, but you're having those initial conversations with the director, when they may have been doing that with three or four other people. Are you talking about ... are you actually talking about how you would do it? Or is it just a conversation where you get together and it's like "Do we get along?", sort of thing. Or, are you actually laying out "This is what I do."
Barry Ackroyd:00:13:57Yeah. I think it's ... you've got to, in a way, you've got to drop enough hints to know that you know what you're doing, show enough enthusiasm. But that process has got to be worked out face-to-face, like ... and not even over a cup of coffee, it's during the prep period. It's working together, it's seeing each other's vision, what works, what doesn't. Indicating what you can do. Planning some things that are very specific and planning that stuff. That's all what, really, one should onboard the film. That's why it's hard when you're starting out, is you can't just lean on the fact that "I did it. I did this, like this, and I did that, like that." But what you do then, is you've got to say "I love that kind of film. I watched that. And look at that: we could do that together, we can make it look like this film or that film." These are the influences. Let's put it that way.
Barry Ackroyd:00:14:59Whereas, if you've done enough films, you've made enough films, as I have, you are a, kind of, one of the influences that are on that film and, therefore, you have a credibility due to that. So that's what makes it easier, in a way.
Patrick:00:15:15Yeah. I guess it would sort of a Catch 20- I mean it would be a double-edged sword though, too, because if ... I guess, is that good, when people come to you, saying "I really like the stuff that you do. I want it to look like X or Y or Z," and maybe you don't ... you know, you don't want to do that again? Does that happen?
Barry Ackroyd:00:15:33That's a very shrewd, kind of, question. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because then people are asking you to do things that are not necessarily what you best, and that can happen that's for sure.
Barry Ackroyd:00:15:46But, you know, cinematography is about interpreting the story and giving the director their vision and doing it to the very best of your ability. There's no question about that: everybody will do it to the best of their ability. It's whether you find ... if could become stifling to you because you don't know that ... in my mind I could see it this way. But yeah, that's true, that does happen; it's not that it's ... And it has happened once or twice, or there times, maybe. Three times, at the most.
Barry Ackroyd:00:16:26But, you know, I've done ... out of the many films I've done, 30-something odd, perhaps more, I don't know, but they're ... on the whole it's good. And even after that has happened you might just come out the other end thinking "Yep. The great thing there was I learnt something really special that I would not have learnt if I hadn't taken that route." So I think that's ... you've got to keep an open mind to all this stuff, really, and always do your best, that's ... so I give 100%. Which hopefully I do, you know.
Patrick:00:17:03Yeah. And what now gets you ... when you're reading scripts, what gets you excited about doing projects? Is it the script? Is it working with directors? Is is a mixed bag of things that will get you to say "Okay. This sounds like something that's me." Is it ... do you ... sometimes you may get stuck into, like, you know, you maybe doing ... not you per se, but cinematographers, you're stuck doing comedy because you did one comedy movie, and then you don't want to do that anymore, so you look in a different direction? What gets you going now?
Barry Ackroyd:00:17:33Well, yeah, I mean most of the stuff I've done ... I mean I do a lot of action films and war films, but I've very anti-war. So it's got to be ... because you're making war films to try and denounce war, you know what I mean, rather than to ... that seems quite obvious. But some people make war films because they love war. It's got to be the right kind of category and it's got to be the right thing. So when you're reading the script, you've got to know that the director has a point of view of the world.
Barry Ackroyd:00:18:06And those people that I mentioned, earlier on, Adam McKay, and Kathryn Bigelow, and Paul Greengrass, and Ken Loach, and all those directors that I've worked with, and a lot more like that, as well, have that kind of point of view of the world. And that's what I kind ... and that's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for that, we want to express ... having a similar way of expressing what we feel about the world. Because I feel like cinematography is the key tool involved in this, it's key to every film. You can use the very same equipment but you can make that film with a different mentality, and you will have a film that is very right-wing, and you can make a film that is very left-wing ... if you want to put it in those terms, due to the chemistry that's involved.
Barry Ackroyd:00:19:01But the camera is this incredible tool for doing that: it's very specific. And I think that's part of my style, in a way, is that I try to find an appropriate style for an appropriate subject, so those things have got to come together somehow. I've got to somehow make those things come together on the set, and that's one of my roles, I think, as a cinematographer.
Patrick:00:19:25Yeah. And have you found, through working with all the great directors that you just listed, and the countless others that you've worked with, is there a particular style, of that partnership, that works for you? Do you like someone that's very hands-on in the camera, and lighting, and pre-production aspects of it, or do you like someone that says "This is your territory," and that "I'll focus on other things."?
Barry Ackroyd:00:19:48They tend to be of the ... After my kind of early days of working with Ken Loach, who taught me how to do this. He'd been taught by Chris Menges, another great, great cinematographer, who taught Ken how to make this, kind of, social realist kind of film making, and it came out of our British documentary, the British documentary world. I was in that realm when I started working with Ken, I had to ... for the first two or three films I was a passenger. I was, like, "Yeah. I see now. I see how it can do that. I see why you're doing this. Yeah. Yeah, take that light out of the room. I understand why you don't want actors and lights to dance around each other." No, I understand all that.
Barry Ackroyd:00:20:34Once I got that, and then I apply that, now, that application comes in the form of good directors who really know what they want to do, but having made the choice of cinematographer, then have the ability to say "Do that thing. Do that thing you do," which is the signature, I guess. I like to think that you carry a signature with you, and that's ... People often say "I saw that film the other day," say Detroit, someone had gone to see Detroit and they hadn't seen ... didn't read the credits, or didn't know ... "Because, all the way through I was going, like "That's Barry doing that." And then you read the credits, you go "See," you ... So that's right. That's good. That's how it should be. There's other ways of making films, but I think you should stick, in a way, as much to do the ... to do what you do well, stick to what you know, is a good thing. I try, if I'm talking to students and things, and saying "Find a signature," because if it works, if you can get it right then people will come to you. If you have a generic style that can move from American comedy, wide-angled lenses and blah-blah-blah, to action films, movies or whatever, you'll probably keep working a lot but you might never get the satisfaction that you might get by knowing that this is what you ... It's like a self-portrait, if you can keep doing that self-portrait, like Rembrandt, or Van Gogh, or whatever, then you're trying to perfect what you'd been doing, rather than keep going around from one place to the next.
Patrick:00:22:34Yeah. And as you, sort of, sharpen that knife from one project to the next and the process gets ever more refined, do you find yourself, even in the pre-production process, do you use the same ... is it the same sort of workflow and same structure, you like to look at the same things in the beginning and have ... do you do the same planning? Or, how does it work in the pre-production phase of things, to make sure that that flows?
Barry Ackroyd:00:22:57Yeah. I think I do, actually. I didn't really ... When I took on the Bourne film with Paul, it was the fourth film I'd done with Paul Greengrass. Obviously, there's a great deal of planning goes on, but I like never to be shutting doors behind as you go down those long corridors of pre-production. I like to keep every one of those doors open, if I can, and think, on the day ... and we know the location, we know the story, we've got the script, but Paul's the kind of director who will change the script and the location as you're shooting it, and re-shoot, you know. So he likes that open-mindedness, and I like it, too. If we suddenly go, like "This isn't working here. Let's just go and do this." And then, "Yeah, camera's ready," we're gone. Gone. "Let's do it!" Yeah. Or "Give me an hour," or something like that, "so we can get everything together."
Barry Ackroyd:00:23:58But you will be ... so within that process I always like to keep an open mind but, of course, prepping is incredibly important, finding the right location, knowing which way the sun moves across the scene, across the location. By the way, I shoot a lot of things on location. I'm not much for a studio, kind of, filming. It's funny, I like limitations, the natural limitations that come to you from shooting on locations, which I embrace. And I think studios give you every option, "Here it is. Here's the blank sheet or the dark room." And "There you go." I like to start with something that's got some integrity in it and then we can work around that, you know.
Patrick:00:24:47Yeah. And it seems, like, for feature film work, where we've seen your successes, I'd be interested to hear how that translates to the commercial world? Do you operate the same way in commercials where, sometimes it's a bit harder to not have ... to be able to move freely? It can be a little more difficult when there's so many more people on set, or with opinions.
Barry Ackroyd:00:25:11Yeah. You mean on commercials, like in advertising, in that kind of sense?
Barry Ackroyd:00:25:18Yes, obviously, you're kind of a little bit ... your hands are tied a little bit more but, again, when you can offer up your signature and people can accept that, that's fine. What I'm finding more is a restriction is this, kind of ... in commercials you have to ... just to finish that question, commercials you have to deliver what's necessary for the commercial. We're lucky, in Britain, that most of them don't involve a packshot as the key element.
Patrick:00:25:56That is lucky!
Barry Ackroyd:00:25:56Or a piece to camera to tell you what to buy. We've avoided that, fortunately. So you're working on pretty interesting kind of concepts, usually. So I've been lucky in that way, as well.
Barry Ackroyd:00:26:11But the biggest restriction now, I think, is visual effects overtaking cinematography. I know this sounds, like, apocalyptic and dystopian, but like some of these scripts I've had which, from very good directors, without mentioning any names, is that they include huge amounts of green screen studio work. Like, one film had 70 days of green screen in a studio. And that was ... I would love to work with that director, the script was great, but I couldn't see myself doing that. I just couldn't see myself doing it. So yeah, yeah a bit like a prison sentence, but it's not, because people do it, they love it, and they make great films by doing it and the visual effects contribute so much.
Barry Ackroyd:00:27:13This is not a criticism because a lot of the films I do have very strong visual effects in them, it's just that they're very well hidden inside the film. That means it doesn't ... it's hidden when you don't have people flying through the air, there's no fantasy in it. And I'm not ... this sounds like I'm against fantasy as well. I am a very 'realist' person. I'm, like, yeah, I believe in keeping your feet on the ground and being quite dour about things and making very practical decisions, you know?
Barry Ackroyd:00:27:57And sometimes I get frustrated by this ability, now, to fly out of our world and into a fantasy world, when really we should be looking more inwardly and concentrating on what's going on in the world, and playing our part as artists and filmmakers to say, "There's something very important, here, to be said. Let's say it." We have to avoid some of these distractions that are thrown at us continuously, you know ... so.
Patrick:00:28:27Yeah. And during this process of when you're doing ... you know, you mentioned that you like to keep it a little bit freer and to have the opportunity to ... or if something comes up, better than what you were thinking on the day, whether you're talking to Paul, or something, about a specific location, or an angle that you're going to shoot, on these massive movies. I imagine it's a learning experience that you get better from job to job, and how to manage that many people, to be fluid, you know? That many decisions, to still be able to react: I'm wondering if you have any ... how you do it, or are there any tips that you would offer up, to how to keep that flexibility, even with such large crews and so many cameras going. Like, how does that work?
Barry Ackroyd:00:29:08Well yeah. It's about an intimacy that you keep with the story. I'll give you a ... when we did The Bourne, Jason Bourne, I was asked to write a little piece for Universal Studios to say what the film was going to look like, so we could, obviously, you know ... so I wrote this thing and, in the end, it was more about this style that Paul has developed for the Bourne films; three films that I hadn't done with Paul. He comes from a documentary background, and that documentary background needs fluidity and agility and all that kind of stuff. Not just with the camera, on set, but the ability to capture things, you know.
Barry Ackroyd:00:29:59So I always had that in the back of my mind. Basically, a way of saying that would be saying "I never wanted to change the way I worked when I worked on documentaries." When you see something happening, the camera should be ready to go: it's on your shoulder and you shoot. And you can do that with three of four cameras, if everybody's on the same wavelength. And, I think, that's what we've achieved on some of these films, where you can have multiple cameras, you can have tight, small locations, and you can "Shoot and shoot and shoot," which was a quote from Robert Drew, the documentary filmmaker from the '60s. Drew, Pennebaker, Leacock: those are my inspirations, in a way.
Barry Ackroyd:00:30:49Drew said "Fuck the dolly. Fuck the tripod. Fuck the crane. Let's shoot and shoot and shoot." And I think that's ... obviously, that's a flippant thing because we have dollies, we have cranes, we have tripods, we have sliders, we have ... you know, we have equipment around us. We have great crew, fantastic grips, and electricians, and sparks, and a gaffer who we have a good rapport with: a team of people: but we all have the same attitude, at the end of the day, is "That we can get that. What's stopping us?"
Patrick:00:31:23And when you're working in that environment where you're reacting to those things and trying to keep an open mind, are you ... when there's multiple cameras going, are you manning the camera, or are you overseeing the whole operation?
Barry Ackroyd:00:31:36I've never been a DP who always sees things, I've always shot, you know, because you start off with the single camera and you shoot, and I did my documentaries, that's where I learnt to look and see and feel what's going on through the lens, and so I'm always there with the camera. Often, when things are slightly not ... when you're not achieving what you expect, or the director's not achieving what they expect, Paul, Kathryn, and other directors say to you "Just do that thing you do. Let's just give it a go. Let's take everything else away. Just give them one more time with this, and you just go there with the camera and see what you see." So I'm always offering to do that, that's always the thing.
Barry Ackroyd:00:32:27If you want an anecdote, we were just shooting Captain Phillips, and the end of the film we shot twice with different kind of scenarios. Once, where Captain Phillips arrives back in America; that didn't work. And another one when he's saved and he's on the ship, he meets the captain; and that didn't work particularly well. And then it occurred to everybody around us that whilst we're on this ship, and Tom Hanks has just been saved from this horrible experience he's had, the first thing he would do is go to the medic. And then once we'd all put that into our heads, we simply went down into the ship, the Navy frigate, we found the real person who was the real medic and we said "What would you do?" And she said "I would do this." And we said "Great. We'll shoot it." And then we turned around, walked into the little medics room on the ship, which was, like, I don't know, 15 feet by 20 feet, or something, and with one camera, and shot it three times, and that is ... like, finished the film. That was the thing we were looking for.
Barry Ackroyd:00:33:46That was very much like documentary filmmaking when we used to find ... you had to find the story. And you'd often find this point where you go, like "I know that's ... this is in the film. Not only is it in the film, this sums up all those things we've been doing for the last six weeks, making this film." And that was the feeling when we did that. That's because we had that open-mindedness of freedom to do it. We didn't shoot the script, we shot the reality; and that's a more important thing.
Patrick:00:34:13Yeah. And, interesting ... I mean that's a wild story, and a perfect example of what you're saying, documentary photography. I'm also interested in how the change in gear, and the change in the cameras that we're using now, has affected that style? Has it made it easier for you, now, that you can use a hired base ISO and you can be more flexible with the run times and all of that? Has that made a difference in how you work?
Barry Ackroyd:00:34:36Yeah. Yeah. Running times is one issue. Yeah, the ISO is useful in very low light levels, but I'd always shot ... again, going back to those days when you didn't have the choice to ... you had the 500 ASA film on a ... running down a corridor and you turn a corner, it's absolutely pitch black. In a documentary you can't say "Let's stop now and put the lights on." Or ... you know what I mean? It's like you can't ... So, I've always had that, and I've used that as, not necessarily ... what you do is you shoot and shoot and shoot, and you look at it and you're like "That has another quality altogether because it isn't slick. It isn't ..."
Barry Ackroyd:00:35:29So I've never been afraid of using film stock and abusing film stock, in that way, to make it ... because it has qualities that you can't often get, and you don't get that on a digital camera. So, yes and no, is the answer to your question. Yes, digital has given us a little bit more freedom. Mostly, in the fact that you're giving out a high definition image to the director, especially if you have four cameras or so, three or four cameras: you've got three images that are good to look at: that is easier to rewind and play back and check. Not to use them as, like, [inaudible 00:36:11] and everybody watching them, it's just more for reference and then move on: reference that and move on. That's a help.
Barry Ackroyd:00:36:19But it's also a hindrance in that the sensitivity of those chips and the 4K, 6K, 8K element of it is, strangely, destroying the image, the cinematic image, because I mean every cinematographer will have their view on this, but there is a quality that I want to keep in ... having described what I do, there's a quality that I want to try and keep, which is one of less ... how can I put it? Less quality, more emotion. It's, kind of, you can lose the emotion by having such a clear, crisp image.
Barry Ackroyd:00:37:16So, interestingly, the two films I've done with Kathryn Bigelow, was The Hurt Locker, which we shot on Super 16 cameras, Aaton cameras, four cameras running around, and it has that quality, it has a quality ... nobody ever questioned whether it was super 16, or 35; it just looked right for the story. So when we did Detroit we were going along the same route but, in the end, we chose to use digital camera, the ALEXA Mini, three of those, but I put 16 mil lenses on it, so you reduce the size of the sensor by using a smaller scaled lens.
Barry Ackroyd:00:37:55That's all your technical value. But so, basically, we're degrading that image, the 2K ... well, it's actually 3. something K, from all of those cameras, was now down to 1.8K, or something like that, which is not considered hi-def or suitable for new 4K televisions, for example. But I know that film will be screened on 4K televisions, and all of that.
Barry Ackroyd:00:38:28So we have to avoid those kind of myths, really. What I'm saying is you have to make the right ... you have to use the right tool for the right job.
Patrick:00:38:35Yeah. And when you have ... even when you're using something like the Mini that will give you, like you say, that high definition image that's coming out, when you're working with multiple cameras, and you're manning one, you're putting quite a bit of trust in your operators. How are you briefing them on the style that you're ... do you work with the same people time and time again?
Barry Ackroyd:00:38:54Yeah. Yeah, you do. That works really well, but it ... You start with some, new ... obviously, every now and again, you've got a new bunch of people. You're in a different country, a different lo- you've not been able to take the guys that you always take, with you, so you start again. But once you've found them, it's a very freeing thing. This also goes for the AC, for the first AC, focus puller, is that they're the ones who come in and they go, like "I've seen your work and I'm really nervous-
Patrick:00:39:27You're scaring them-
Barry Ackroyd:00:39:28"But it's all motion, and you don't put marks down. And you're constantly handheld, so I don't know where you are, and I can't ... you know. How am I going to do that?" And I go, like "The first thing you have to know is you cannot make a mistake. The only problem would be is you didn't try, because it's the energy that we're trying to develop, is that energy of a freedom of not knowing." So, okay "I didn't know they were going to do that." Well that's why it went out of focus, that's exactly what would happen in real life. I mean, and there's a level where it works, a level where it falls apart. So they get a ... once they've learnt that, then they have this big freedom then, to do what they like ... yeah.
Patrick:00:40:20Yeah. And then do you give ... do you have, like, the Barry Ackroyd speech, to the new operators, to tell them exactly what you're looking for? Do you brief them or do you just sort of let them find their way?
Barry Ackroyd:00:40:31No. No. No. We ... there's a lot of briefing, a lot of discussion. As you're shooting you go, like "Gee, why did you do that? You should have done ... what did you ... yeah, I get you, yeah, yeah, yeah." Or they'll, you know, and then they just ... you look at it, "Wow. That was great. I'd never thought of that one. That's brilliant. Well done." That's the good thing of having multiple people around you, is they're bringing stuff to ... you know. And yeah, I trust them, like a director trusts a cinematographer, then I should also trust the operators, and should trust the focus pullers, and they should trust the loaders. And once your doing that, everything's started working well. You trust the sound department, and all that, it all comes together.
Barry Ackroyd:00:41:19And then you have to trust the editors because they have all you material. And, hopefully, you've given them ... as they trust you, you've given them all the material that can make a great film, and you have to trust them that they will turn that into something more than you ever dreamt of. Filmmaking is taking some words on the page and turning into something you never thought could ever happen, really. Something better than was written. But otherwise it may as well stay on the page, or be on radio, or something. But film, cinema, is the greatest art form, in my mind, because we can bring all this together and cooperate in this way, with a lot of people, which is a skill in itself. And then produce an art form that is universal in its language and inspiring at its best: it's inspiring and moving and life giving. So I think that's why I love cinema, I suppose.
Barry Ackroyd:00:42:22And, cinematography, like I said earlier on, is the heart of it. Until cinematography had been invented, we were stuck with plays ... and well, we weren't stuck with, we had plays, and we had opera, and we orchestras, and choirs, and folk singers, but now we have every form of cinema, which I think is ... that's why I think it's the most important art form. It's the last of the art forms.
Patrick:00:42:51And that trust issue that you mention before, have you seen that shift now? Now that directors are able to see ... especially with the ALEXA, something very, very close to what the finished product will be. Do you find that that relationship has changed and the conversations around the monitors have changed?
Barry Ackroyd:00:43:10Yeah, slightly. But, I mean, that would be more with directors who've not really been brought up on film. I mean, they learnt their trust throughout a career of working on film, when if you did have an image coming back from it, it would be crap. Or someone like Ken Loach, who never used a monitor while I worked with him, for 20 years, he never used a monitor. He knew ... he knew what he was doing. They left the frame there ... they walked down the street and they just left the frame and "Cut!" You know. And that would be ... that's-
Barry Ackroyd:00:43:55So I've gone from that realm, into now, where you work with new directors and, of course, they want that trust of having a very good image there. And quite rightly, it's nothing ... if it wasn't necessary we wouldn't have done it, but it is necessary to see what's going on and to get the trust of the people all around you. Back to commercials, you're pleasing several layers of hierarchy every minute, so you've got to all know that you're on the same page, "This is what we're doing," or "This is what it looks like. This is what it's turned out like," and that helps the day to move on.
Patrick:00:44:33With, working in digital now, do you think it has allowed you to be any more bold, seeing exactly how far you can push it before it's too much? Or, it hasn't really affected the way you approach exposure or anything like that?
Barry Ackroyd:00:44:46No. Well, I can point at things I did in the past which were bolder or crazy-
Patrick:00:44:52Through youthful exuberance, or ...?
Barry Ackroyd:00:44:57I wasn't so young, either. But just through, maybe just stubbornness or something, I don't know. Like, we were talking about that prep thing earlier on, so you get to a point where you say ... So this scene is written. It's total darkness, says so in the script. You're in the streets of Baghdad, for instance, and there's no electricity, there's no generators, no fires burning. And you've got your ... Bourne, you've got Matt Damon and his guys wandering the streets. Maybe they've got, like, the flashlights on the guns, "No. They wouldn't have that." So now we go "Okay." And we've got a location that's the size of two football pitches, at least, and of course you've got to put some light up there, but you want that feeling you have in total darkness of nothingness.
Barry Ackroyd:00:45:56And then, so in the end, it just, it kind of evolved, itself, this thing where we were like four stops underexposed. I was still using an Optimo, Angenioux Optimo zoom, which is 2.8, 500 ASA film stop. And it will stop underexposed, and I didn't push the film either. And actually I was using daylight film for tungsten, as well, so that was another ... So yeah, I probably shouldn't have done that but, in the end, I had to stand by that. I think that was a decision that gives an edge to the film, where you're not reading all the detail of everything, you're really fighting ... you need very good projection and the right atmosphere. You've got that great music and ... But you know, there's a chunk of the film which is, pretty much, as far on the edge as I would have dreamed of going.
Barry Ackroyd:00:46:59And, again, there was another thing on Hurt Locker where, again, the script says "And they disappear into total darkness." And there's an issue ... So I said "We could put some light on the horizon with just some light bulbs. When it's out of focus it'll look like ... the lights will come up and it'll look like a city or town, somewhere, way off in the distance." And also we talked about maybe just a rim line or something, just to keep them alive for a while in the shot, in the darkness, utter darkness. And then Kathryn and I ... And I'd also talked about scenes in documentaries, like "Don't Look Back" and things that Chris Menges had shot, way back in the day, where I swear that the camera just had no light at all, but they don't stop, they keep filming, because it's a transition, a passing through a passageway or a cellar, through the cellar or something. And they came out the other end and you're in real time again. So you feel that's a real dynamic, you know.
Barry Ackroyd:00:48:04So that's what we chose to do in The Hurt Locker and there's a scene where it goes total black. And when I first saw it, which happened to be at the Venice Film Festival, I hadn't seen it. I hadn't even been to the grade because I was on another job and then I got to see the film, so I was like fresh to seeing it. And it went to black, and my heart started to race, like, and I go "Whoa!" And then I started to count. So I'd be, like "That's probably four, five, six, seven, eight, nine ... fuck!" Then he came back out of the blackness and I thought "Whoa!" And I'm sure that, to some extent, the audience had the same feeling. It's like "We've lost them. These guys have now disappeared. They're in this crisis place and now they've disappeared. Well isn't that what life is like?"
Barry Ackroyd:00:48:53So, in some ways, you might half-jokingly say that that's probably the best shot I ever did. It had no image on it at all. Because it did the right thing for the story, and you had a director who was able to do that, and [inaudible 00:49:10] who knew how long to leave that nothingness, you know. So yeah, that's what it comes ... yeah, would I do that now on, digitally? Yeah, I would do, but I'd do it because I had the experience of doing it before.
Patrick:00:49:25Yeah. And are you able ... you know, you mentioned seeing it for the first time, there, at the festival. Are you able to look back on you work and see it for the story, or do you still see it for 'me', on that day, the clouds came in, it should've looked like this?
Barry Ackroyd:00:49:41No. I'd say it takes five years before you really get a chance, even, to begin to look at it like ... you know, because, yeah, when you're sitting in the grade, color grade there, for weeks with your ... like, you're telling them all the stories, "You don't know what was behind there. There was a rain storm coming here," you know what I mean? And you tell them all the stories and you just wish there could be another line of disclaimers underneath the frame-
Barry Ackroyd:00:50:12That's why you don't ... I don't like to criticize the DPs, because when you see something that you might, in your mind, go like "Ooh, how do you do that?" Because I know there's probably a very good reason why they did that, you know?
Barry Ackroyd:00:50:24And I'm sure they say the same about me. "Why did you shoot that? That was crap!" It was crap because it was that or nothing at the time. I don't work on those films where you, kind of, go like "We'll come back tomorrow and we'll do it again, and we'll do it again, and we'll do it again." I like the films where there's a real energy. Yeah, there's energy in the whole process, and in the moment, I think that's really important. You catch the weather that you deserve, really, and you get that, and you find that those little magical things happen: the sun comes out through the ... in a real location, in a way that lights up the interior, that you wouldn't have worked on if you'd been in a studio.
Barry Ackroyd:00:51:15So I think, yeah, that's what I like, I like a little bit of randomness ... yeah. And knowing enough.
Patrick:00:51:25Where does ... or how does, now, how does exposure work for you now? How are you, when you're working on ... say you're working on, let's say, Detroit, for example, what are you doing for exposure? Are you still using a light meter? Are you going off [crosstalk 00:51:39]?
Barry Ackroyd:00:51:41Yeah. Always need the light meter, yeah. It's as much of a ratio as it is for exposure. But I've often used, for example, that thing I was saying in the green zone, when there were four stops underexposed, I got the meter out and it was 500 ASA on the meter, so I turned it up to 1000, then I turned it up to 2000-
Barry Ackroyd:00:52:09... until something came onto the meter. If I found a highlight, and then I'd go, like "See! There it is. It's okay." But I needed that meter just to tell me that it was ... because there was a point where there was nothing there, but there is something. And then, the film stop was just incredible, how it wants to do that. You can't use the word reciprocity because you'd need a longer exposure for that, but there's the thing where film stop wanted ... it wanted to work, it wanted to find some kind of image.
Barry Ackroyd:00:52:42And I find myself looking at still photographs now, in exhibitions, or of very grainy, very edgy, soft images, unfocused images; whether they're from the Victorian era. Just saw an exhibition of the Victorian era photographs of 1850s, 40s, 50s, and they couldn't get it in focus because the lenses weren't good enough, or people moved a fraction and ... you know. But they look exquisitely beautiful. And then, the works of Josef Koudelka which I saw, just, in the Czech Republic recently, and they are incredible.
Barry Ackroyd:00:53:24And we spend our time trying to fuck up the image some way. Everyone's trying to get the old lens ... an old lens and put an anamorphic, so it distorts a little bit. Everyone's trying to do that now, in the digital world. Very few people go for "I want this to be crisp, and sharp, and AK, and smooth," and all that. We've ... I think cinematographers are trying to put the breaks on all that somehow.
Patrick:00:53:57Yeah. You don't find yourself sitting over the monitor, knit-picking about little tiny things, when you have the meter? Does it allow you to work a little bit more freely when you can ...?
Barry Ackroyd:00:54:10Oh no, the monitor helps, I guess, it helps you in some ways. But the other ... what came along with that development, that technology, and the digital technology, and visual effects, and the DI, the digital integrating, is you can go "I know that wall's too bright over there, but it's simple, I'm just going to put a ... I'll wait while we get to the grade and we'll attenuate it down there." It takes 30 seconds, it'll be done. Or I could try and get two or three flags in a room, and we could do this, and we could do that, and we start restricting everybody else, and it's taken another 40 minutes to do it.
Barry Ackroyd:00:54:53Perhaps we don't paint so much now as we would have done, but I never really saw myself as a painter. I went to art school and I wanted to be a sculptor, I didn't want to be a painter. I wanted to be someone who looked at things in a whole way, a three dimensional way, but not 3D in the way of cinema, 3D in the way of living life, where you walk around a sculpture and you crouch down and look at it from another angle and you walk away from it: you know, that kind of thing is my way of looking at the world I think.
Patrick:00:55:31Yeah. In that way of looking at the world and informing your cinematography, are there things that you ... are there tools, or are there lenses, or is there a camera that will help you get to that point? Have you got something up your sleeve, that when something comes along, you know, "Okay. I'm going with this. I'm going in this direction," type of thing?
Barry Ackroyd:00:55:51Well I always carry zoom lenses because, I mean, if you look at the films ... I talked earlier about emotion coming through the camera and being able to look at it as if it is someone's real life and make some connection, and that comes from documentaries where that was the key to what you were filming, basically. To build that rapport so you could get close to someone's thoughts. Well that's the same on a feature film, whether it's Tom Hanks, Matt Damon, or some unknown actor, or some medic on a ship; you're looking for the same kind of thing in their eyes.
Barry Ackroyd:00:56:34I find that ... I think I interpret it as the way that we look at the world: you're slightly interested in something, you have a slightly wider vision of it; as soon as something intense happens, whether it's right next to you, in someone's eye, literally, or someone's ... or down the street; your brain zooms. And we have these incredible lenses so that's what I use. I don't throw the zoom just for the sake of it, I'm throwing it because I'm responding to what's going on in front of the camera.
Barry Ackroyd:00:57:08But I respond in the speed of your brain, like, sort of "Phuff, there it is." "Boom." People don't come up to me and say ... they say "your camera looks very kinetic," that's a nice way of putting it. Quite frank isn't it? But, in honesty, there's all the zooms in there as well, " What are you doing ... why are you doing that?" You're not meant to use zooms, you're meant to use primers. The idea is those zooms are disguised in the story and, I guess, if someone was bothered they would ... and you counted the numbers of zooms, analytically, you'd probably come up with a much greater number than you can actually feel in the film, I think, because they're meant to be intuitive and responsive, in the way that humanity is intuitive and responsive.
Barry Ackroyd:00:58:03And that is the part of that idea of the sculpture world, where you can bring things closer and further away, whether it's just to make a step forward, or step back. But your brain ... and you're never doing just one thing, you don't have a fixed lens in your head, you have a series of zooms.
Patrick:00:58:30Yeah. And in keeping with that theme of staying true to reality, are you someone that use in-camera filters? Do you like to put stuff in front of the lenses, to muck it up, or to make it ...?
Barry Ackroyd:00:58:46No. No. We've got so many lenses and filters now, with the digital cameras, you've got all the [Holder 00:58:50] filters in front there, now, anyway. When you're exterior, you've got a day of exteriors, you've got to stop down to get to a very low ... everyone shoots at nothing more than 2 8, or 4 now, I would say, or 5, 6, perhaps, but you've got a narrower depth of field. Part of the de-digitizing of the sensors, to give you that sense of depth of field.
Barry Ackroyd:00:59:18I think the best tools you have are your choice of your depth of field, and the lens, the focal length, and focus, the actual action of focus between one thing and the next. And I think those are probably the better tools than the dolly, the crane and the tripod. People hate me for saying that, especially grips!
Patrick:00:59:40I was just about to say, especially the grips, yeah.
Barry Ackroyd:00:59:44But I have got some very good ... some of my best friends are grips, I should say.
Patrick:00:59:46You can preface that, yeah!
Barry Ackroyd:00:59:48No we get on very well. And again it's, like, if you're working with people who are defining, like ... trying to say "Well, you should do this on that shot, or do that. Why are using a ... why haven't you got the techno-crane out, and we don't want to have to move things around." Well, because it's better in the hand, for me. I can see the world from here. So I don't want to be looking at the monitor at the end of a long telescopic arm, I want to be with a remote head three axes, I want to be there, you know. Having said that, I don't want any cinematographer to think that I don't use those things, or some upcoming cinematographer thinks there's some dogma that will achieve a style or something like that: it's not a dogma. I hope it's not a dogma. I think it's an approach.
Barry Ackroyd:01:00:52Yeah, and I feel if I tried to do something else, certainly now, I would feel [inaudible 01:01:01]-
Patrick:01:01:00Too far down the rabbit hole.
Barry Ackroyd:01:01:02I guess that's why when some scripts arrive I just feel they can't copy me, because I can't ... not that I'm stuck in the mud, it's just that I'm actually still trying to perfect .... well not perfect, because you're never going to do that, I'm still trying to find what it is that I do well. And I feel that you've got to keep trying. So yeah, I'm itching now to start another film. I just wish I knew what it was.
Patrick:01:01:33Yeah. Well that sort of goes in a perfect segue-way to the last question we always ask, which is, based around what you would say to someone who was just starting out, that wanted to follow the same path that you did and what you, perhaps, didn't know that you would've liked to. And, you know, you touched on it earlier, about finding your own voice and then trying to perfect it. Have you got something like that? Is that what you would pass on, to the 20 years ago version of yourself?
Barry Ackroyd:01:02:03Yeah. I think it is, like, try and find a voice. Try and ... I read something that Roger Deakin said, who ... I used to assist Roger Deakin on documentaries so I know what he's talking about, and I worked on documentaries for ... I went to 50 or 60 countries. But he said he was never afraid to take the next job. He would often ... in fact the way we all got started was we got offered ... we were freelance, i.e., like unemployable filmmakers, so you took every job that came along, basically. But you turned everyone of those jobs into something that's really special.
Barry Ackroyd:01:02:51And, I think, you need the passion and you need dedication, but you also need a vision of the world. And if you can get your vision of the world and you can find a way to make cinematography speak, then you're on the right road. And then other people will recognize that, and other people will want to use it, and want to see it, and if you're lucky enough, and I was very lucky, is to say you'll come out still trying after years of doing it.
Patrick:01:03:31Spoken like a true veteran.
Barry Ackroyd:01:03:34Yeah, when you say that, "I've reached Nirvana now," then what's left? You've got to say, "I'm still striving." All the guys that I looked up to, Haskell Wexler, never stopped striving right to the end, so I think you ... you know ... yep. There was a ... yeah, I don't want to list all ... a list of names, but you can imagine who those people are.
Barry Ackroyd:01:04:03And I think, yeah, you've got every opportunity now, in lots of ways, because everyone can pick up a camera, everyone can make images, but you're signature will be always yours. The individuality of it is what's important.
Patrick:01:04:25Yeah. Beautifully said. And a perfect way to wrap it up. Thanks Barry for coming on. It was a real pleasure. I enjoy your work and I'm looking forward to the next one.
Barry Ackroyd:01:04:35Okay. Thanks. Thanks Patrick. And good luck with all the podcasts. I think it's brilliant you're doing this, because it's, like, we need a voice for cinematography that's clear and straightforward, and it's so informative. It's brilliant.
Patrick:01:04:53And just like that, Barry's come and gone. I want to give a big thank you to Barry for taking time out of his schedule. I know we were trying to set this up for a long time, trying to fit him in, in between all the pre-production that he's doing, in between reading scripts and doing busy stuff. So he's all over the place, but it was fantastic of him to take time out of his day to sit down with us and chat about his experience. So that is a good thing, I think.
Patrick:01:05:15I hope you got a lot out of it, and I hope you appreciate ... I know, now, looking back at his work, it certainly makes me appreciate it more, seeing or hearing the why behind the decision making, behind those little zooms. And you start to see them everywhere in his work, you start to see those quick little zooms that he talks about. It was fun.
Patrick:01:05:32So that is this week. Next week, what are we doing? We have another Breakdown Podcast, I'm sure it's going to be fantastic. It'll probably look like a million bucks and will have cost the production company two million. So, not really doing our job there, but we're going to check it out anyway.
Patrick:01:05:46Before we go, though, look who it is, ladies and gents? Once again it's the Musicbed, when Musicbed said "They are making better music accessible to everyone," they weren't fucking around. Language kids, "They weren't kidding," is what's written here, but I sort of change things as I go. They just announced their all new membership program, the first music licensing subscription of its kind, releasing this summer, which is right around the corner now.
Patrick:01:06:10Musicbed believes everyone should have access to great music in their projects regardless of their budget of workflow. Membership is here to make their world class roster of artists and composers available for all your projects. Membership will give you unlimited access to a majority of Musicbed's artists, all at a flat monthly or yearly rate, based on the types of films you make. And if you still want single use licenses, they're not going anywhere, membership is just a new option to make music licensing work better for you.
Patrick:01:06:38Be one of the first to learn more at musicbed.com/membership. And, don't forget, you get 20% off your next on site license, with the coupon code Wandering20. Ladies and gentlemen that is the Musicbed.
Patrick:01:06:49And Keslow Camera. They have got all the new gear, all the good gear. I'm looking on the website right now, they've got service vision anamorphics, I think those are from Spain. I've never even seen them. I know that they exist because they're here, in the photo, but that is the level of stuff. If that's what you're putting on your front page, that means you basically have every other piece of gear that the working world has known, in your arsenal, or else you'd be putting that on the front page, right.
Patrick:01:07:18They've got all the exotic stuff, you can go check out the website, keslowcamera.com@keslow k-e-s-l-o-w camera.com. And just take a peruse around for yourself. Take a look at the credits. Take a look at the gear. Take a look at the new gear, all the specialty equipment that they acquired from Claremont Camera, it's tons and tons of stuff.
Patrick:01:07:38And you look at their list of credits, and if you can see your own film, or your own commercial slotting in there, then you, too, should check out the kind of service and support that they offer. Because there's nothing worse than even the idea of feeling a little bit nervous about where you get your gear from, or the gear that you've gotten, can just completely ruin the vibe on a shoot. You want to know that someone there has your back, that if something goes wrong, a camera goes down, or a card, something happens to it, then you will access to people who know the equipment, who know the tools, and that can get you replacements, and that can take care of you, so that you know that peace of mind, the weight of failure, is off of your shoulders, and you can think about all the things necessary for the actual job itself.
Patrick:01:08:17So Keslow has got a host of credits underneath their belt. We talked about Jonathan Sela, the billion dollar cinematographer on Deadpool, we talked about Westworld; all of those things help Keslow stand out, in a very crowded space, with service and support and having all of the top gear, and all of the locations across North America. Where, if you have the time, they will welcome you in there to test all of the gear, and if you mention that you heard about them on The Wandering DP Podcast, they will hook you up.
Patrick:01:08:44That is Keslow Camera, and we thank them for being a sponsor, and make sure you check 'em out.
Patrick:01:08:48Okay. And that's next week. And, the Patreon folks, be sure to check out the live stream/podcast.
Patrick:01:08:54And away we go. We will see you next week. Goodbye.
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